HBO Boxing lived up to expectation -once again- when it brought us a hellacious double header this past Saturday, January 25, from the Pechanga Resort in Temecula, California. The main event was a unification bout in the welterweight division between stylist and Shane Mosley's executioner, Vernon "The Viper" Forrest and Ricardo "El Matador" Mayorga. The co-feature was supposed to have been a title shot between Vassiliy Jirov and James "Lights Out" Toney, a match that ended on the editor's trash bin, as Mr. Jirov opted out.

What to do, what to do? Well, why not bring in the big hearted "little" men? Nate Campbell wanted a piece of Casamayor, and Joel needed some work before moving on to a possible showdown with Floyd Mayweather, Jr. Okay, let's do it they said, and thus, they rounded out the show, and one hell of a good one at that, at least on paper. Competitive, possibly explosive and meaningful to all participants, which is always an asset for the fans.

Campbell and Casamayor led the action. In one corner we had Nate Campbell, a late bloomer, a man with very limited amateur experience and only 20+ professional fights. He also brought to the table the NABF 130 lbs. title which he ripped from Daniel Alicea by way of an explosive 3rd round KO a few months ago. Along with the bauble he towed in leading contender in the Trainer of the Year race, Buddy McGirt.

Joel Casamayor brought to the table over 300 amateur fights, and a gold medal in the Barcelona Olympic games, along with a very respectable professional résumé. Joel defected shortly thereafter -at great risk to his life- and has since made South Florida his home. He is a southpaw with power, at one point he was a stylist, now turned brawler, and I am not sure that the style enhances his performance.

In the main event, Vernon "The Viper" Forrest, featured in the HBO poster for this card wearing viper skin boxing gloves, (a bit of heavy makeup too if you ask me), and no opponent by his side. Highly unusual I thought, since he was going to fight another champion, Ricardo Mayorga, in an effort to unify the division. I found that disrespectful to Mayorga, and it made me think about a conversation he and I had some weeks ago at the final Felix "Tuto" Zabala promotion of 2002.

Mayorga was a special guest at that affair, and after speaking to him a while, I noticed how fit he looked. He seemed calm, relaxed, wasn't smoking or drinking, (just so you know), and his physique spoke volumes. I questioned him on how he was doing with his weight, and he pulled up his shirt and said; "I'm at weight now! Tell Vernon he better have strong legs for this one, because he is going to have to run to survive what I am going to give him."

I knew then, by the physical conditioning and by the look in his eyes, the no nonsense cadence in his voice when he spoke about Vernon and the fight, that trouble was brewing for the Venomous One. I sensed -and I wasn't off at all- that Mayorga could win or lose, but that to beat him, Vernon Forrest was going to have to knock him out cold. It was just that simple!

Well, I wasn't wrong about Mayorga coming to fight and determined to claim the undisputed championship of the world in the welterweight division. He showed a lot of heart, and one hell of a chin for a guy who has been KO'd before, but obviously that was then, and this is now. Mayorga has the benefit of much better training staff and facility, plus the backing of one of the sport's greatest promoters -love him or hate him- Don King.

Mayorga went on to dispose of Forrest in three short rounds, dropping him with a right to the temple that could have put down a horse. Disregard everything you have read since Saturday; Vernon was hurt, stunned, and more importantly, Vernon's heart had been taken out of the fight early on, when Mayorga showed him he was there for the duration, had no respect for him at all, and could take -as well as give- a hell of a punch.

While Vernon claims the referee only counted to two, you may visit our fight Gallery, shot by one of the most gifted and hardest working man in the sport, ace photographer, Chris Farina. Farina clearly caught the moment when the referee is counting, and his fingers indicate that the count has more than exceeded the count of 2. Vernon himself is trying to spit out his mouthpiece, which is not an  indication that he wanted to continue. When the referee called the bout, Vernon just stood there, didn't put up any type of an argument,  you want to know why? I'll tell you why... because he was hurt and stunned by this Nicaraguan tornado who simply wouldn't stop coming at him. I feel that had the referee allowed the bout to continue, Mr. Forrest might have gotten seriously hurt, and there is no need in that, as the outcome would have been the same but the damage to Forrest's body and ego would have been that much greater.

Casamayor vs Campbell had all the makings of a barn burner... Lots of trash talk had been dispensed prior to Saturday, and Campbell was hell bent on putting to rest the issue of pugilistic "class" as it related to Casamayor outdoing him in that department. This was the night Nate Campbell had worked so hard for, a stepping stone towards a championship bout, and an opportunity to prove that he has ring class and more importantly, that he belongs.

Casamayor had his own agenda. Bouncing back from a fight with a former sparring partner, whom he stopped convincingly here in Miami some weeks ago, Casamayor has his telescope set on the last man to remain undefeated, "Pretty Boy" Mayweather, Jr. Nate Campbell was a means towards the end, and Casamayor needed to do away with the "kid" in impressive fashion, in order to generate a public outcry for the face to face with Floyd Jr.

Well, I won't play the Monday morning quarterback role, as I am just laying the groundwork for a great interview with a far more knowledgeable boxing expert and HBO's unofficial scorer, Mr. Harold Lederman. However, I would be remiss if I didn't touch on a few items regarding this match.

1) - There is no way in hell, even if it did freeze over a time of two, that Joel Casamayor deserved a 96-92, 97-93 score in this fight. I could live with a 96-94 either way or even a draw, but NEVER, NEVER, NEVER was the fight a 96-92 or a 97-93. Shall we call Teddy Atlas for a dissertation on why we need accountability in the sport of boxing? Or perhaps a trip to the optometrist for those two judges is more in order? You make the call...

2) - I have read many reports on the fight, there were many catchy headlines, attention getters and cutesy remarks. But, hell will have to unthaw and freeze over three more times, before anyone who saw that fight, with the exception of a selected few with a vested interest and very short sight, could report a "domination" or a "shut out." Casamayor NEVER dominated Campbell, Casamayor never scored a shut out here. Actually, by most accounts the fight was close, a 96-94 either way or a draw seemed to be the general consensus among boxing people and fans alike, who have flooded the boxing boards in dismay at the scoring disparity.

For those who seem to need a refresher course on the definition of the word "domination," please rewind the tape of Forrest vs Mayorga. Wanna talk about domination? There is a perfect example of it! Whether one feels Casamayor won or not, I feel like I can go out on a limb here and say that 90% of the viewing public will not agree with the DOMINATION headlines.

With all that being said, I would like to introduce Harold Lederman, a man who really needs little introduction. We have come to know him, (or should I say his voice?), although due to so-called budget constrictions, (ain't that a shame, HBO?), we never get to see him. Yes boxing fans, that's the reason why he is kept off camera, less pay this way, can you believe it? Keep him out of sight if you must, but Lederman's voice and his enthusiasm when scoring HBO fights can hardly be missed.

Harold scored the fight 96-94 in favor of Nate Campbell. For once in what seems like an eternity, all three HBO commentators agreed on one winner, and openly said so, with Harold Lederman's scorecard and George Foreman making the strongest case for Nate Campbell. Larry Merchant went all out on this one, too, volunteering that it was the "California connection" that had beaten Nate Campbell, not Joel Casamayor. This statement led to a major confrontation between Larry and the Goossen clan at the hotel lobby, and who knows, HBO might decide to put a zipper on Merchant's lips like they did when he expressed a serious dislike for one of Oscar's mariachi extravaganzas.

It was a night of interesting quotes, some of which couldn't have possibly sat well with the HBO suits. It was a great night of boxing, which brought us an undisputed welterweight champion who seems to defy all odds, in and out of the ring. In his own words: "I don't have a pretty style, but I pack one hell of a punch." Nothing like a man who knows who he is and what he brings to the table; I like that, and actually, I like Mayorga.

He brought excitement to the evening, he backed up all his "I'm gonna destroy this clown" talk and he did it in very convincing fashion. (Judging by the way scoring goes these days, the short route seems to be the only answer). The game needs a guy like Mayorga, who unlike a lot of other so called talkers, has the intestinal fortitude (it's called 'coj*$*s') to go all out, and to make good on his predictions. Let's not forget that Forrest is not his first victim; Mayorga stripped Andrew "Six Heads" Lewis in the same fashion, with that great "in your face" attitude, and one hell of a wallop. Picture that, a seemingly fearless fighter with attitude, power and a beard; how many butts can he put in the seats? Don King has done it again; the man has the vision of an eagle, and the wisdom of a thousand owls.

So, without any further editorial from yours truly, allow me to share what Harold Lederman and I talked about.

BRC: Okay, Harold, tell me about your scoring on the Campbell vs Casamayor fight and how did you come about it? You have the floor, sir...

LEDERMAN: (Laughing) Okay, in the fight as I saw it, I thought Nate Campbell started very, very well. In the first three rounds it appeared as though Joel Casamayor just kept walking into straight right hands, I mean, interestingly enough when you fight a southpaw, generally speaking, you try to say outside his right foot, his lead foot, you don't circle into his power left hand. Nate Campbell was making that mistake, he was going to his right, in other words, trying to square up in front of Joel Casamayor, and even still, Casamayor would walk right in and get nailed by straight right hands. So, as I saw it, Nate Campbell won the first three rounds.

Casamayor then came on and... Campbell sort of slowed up in the fourth round and I thought maybe in the fifth round Joel Casamayor might have hurt him with a right hook at the end of the round. But in the sixth round Nate Campbell had a cut in his right eye, as I remember, by a head butt, and the blood going to his eye certainly didn't hurt him. I thought Campbell came back real good in round seven, I thought he took the lead and won the seventh round. Joel Casamayor came out of that round bleeding, but, he was bleeding from legitimate punches. He was bleeding from a cut over the right eye and Campbell was hitting him with good right hands. Round 8 was very, very close, I remember that. Casamayor did a little more fighting, maybe he pulled out the eighth round but in round 9 Joel Casamayor was all busted up and bleeding, and to tell you the truth, I thought his vision was impaired and he didn't see the punches coming and Nate Campbell had a pretty decent ninth round, he won the ninth round.

The tenth round, again, very, very close but I thought Nate Campbell did more damage with his right hand, so... I had it six rounds to four for Nate Campbell. I thought that he did enough to pull out the decision over a guy with much more experience, and supposedly a much better fighter, AND a heavy favorite. I just don't think it was a great night for Joel Casamayor, I mean, if he won this fight, he won it very, very, very close and California, they tend to use referees to judge, and I was never crazy about referees as judges. They are used to seeing the fights from inside the ring, rather than from the outside of the ring, and you know, they get a totally different perspective of what's going on when they have to sit outside, and I really wasn't particularly crazy about the scoring, I mean... one judge had it eight rounds to two, totally, totally ridiculous. If Casamayor did win, he won very close, personally, I thought Nate Campbell deserved the decision, he did much more damage with that right hand . Basically, all you had to do was take a look at the two fighters at the end of the fight and you know who won.

BRC: The official scores were 98-92, 97-93, 96-94 for Joel Casamayor. Can you see that fight ever being 98-92 or 97-93?

LEDERMAN: 98-92 is absolutely ridiculous, 97-93 was bad, but 98-92 is absolutely ridiculous. The problem with California is that nobody looks at the scores, the fight is over and that's it. They all go home. I mean, there is nobody examining those scores in California, you can bet your life on that, and this just keeps happening over and over and over again. People are always talking about the scoring in California, and the reason is that they are not judges. They're using referees; the guy who had it 98-92 worked as a referee in all the preliminary fights, in quite a few of them, that evening.

BRC: Harold, you were at the fights, please tell me what was the reaction when Casamayor was declared a winner?

LEDERMAN: There were a lot of boos. The truth of the matter was that Nate Campbell seem to have landed the cleaner, harder shots. Sometimes you see a fight with two guys and with one guy you can see the punches, you really see them landing, you know that the shots are doing damage because they are clean shots, and this was the case with this particular fight. I mean, when Nate Campbell would land a right hand, you saw it. There was no question, he was hitting him with some strong shots that were snapping Casamayor's head back at times, really clean, hard shots, they were very obvious; and the damage his punches were doing in Casamayor's face were also very obvious.

I mean, Casamayor is a veteran of what... over 300 amateur fights? I don't think he had a particularly good night. If he won, he certainly didn't win by much.

BRC: Have you taken a lot of heat because of your unofficial score?

LEDERMAN: No, just the opposite, to say the least. I mean, a lot of people have come to me and said: "Harold you were right, Campbell deserved that decision." I think that the fact that Nate Campbell was such a heavy underdog, in all honesty, and he put on such a good fight, I think this fight did him a lot of good rather than any harm. People saw that he has ability; nobody expected him to be so good going in against a guy who is a former world champion, maybe deserves to still be a world champion, you know, he is looking for a big fight against Floyd Mayweather, Jr., and here Nate Campbell gave him probably, one of the roughest fights in his career.

BRC: Tell me if you can, and care to, what happened between Larry Merchant and Joe Goossen after the fight?

LEDERMAN: I never really saw the argument. I heard that they had an argument over what Larry had said about Joel Casamayor and over Nate Campbell's performance but it was out in the lobby of the hotel, and I really didn't see it. I think that commentators learn to live with this sort of thing, there is no such thing as a gracious loser in boxing, take it from me, for many, many years of judging in boxing, I can tell you that, you know, managers can't accept criticism, and I think that this was one of these cases.

Joe Goossen is not one of the worst I've ever seen in boxing as far as not being able to accept criticism, but it's a very typical reaction. You gotta realize these guys all have a vested interest, there is money on the line, and to make big money themselves, their guys have to keep on winning. A lot of them just don't accept criticism very well. I think that Larry called it as he saw it and to tell you the truth, he wasn't particularly impressed with Casamayor's performance on Saturday night. You know, you couldn't be... I mean, here is a fight where he has so much experience compared to a Campbell that he should have won spectacularly and yet, he didn't. He got himself all busted up and if anything, he barely won the fight.

In my eyes, and Larry's eyes, and Jim's and George's, we thought Campbell did pull it out.

BRC: Larry did say that it was the "California connection" that beat Nate Campbell... do you know if this is what triggered the confrontation with Joe Goossen?

LEDERMAN: Well, look, the truth of the matter is that Joe, Dan and the family started out in California, and right now, I presume they are based out of California... I don't think that had anything to do with it, I really believe that the judges called it the way the saw it, the problem was that they should have used judges who are a little bit more experienced in judging. I think that certainly they should change that system in California, instead of using referees to judge they should train judges, and hold seminars, teach some of these guys what to look for. Certainly in that fight, I don't think that Campbell was given enough credit by the officials.

BRC: What do you see in the future for Nate Campbell?

LEDERMAN: I think that he walked out as the proverbial winner, because he made such a good showing. Nobody expected him to do as well as he did, and I think that he is definitely a contender at super lightweight or at lightweight, without a doubt. The lightweight division is not terribly strong these days, he has a chance to move up there, and certainly there are a lot of good fights at 130 lbs., that's for sure!

BRC: In your opinion, is Nate Campbell championship material?

LEDERMAN: Well, I mean, you never know... He started at an older age, he didn't have a lot of amateur experience, but he surely is developing very, very quickly. I also think that he is with the right promoter, I think Main Events is doing a very, very nice job with him. They are getting him the right fights... It's a shame the NABF title wasn't on the line, because then we would have seen a 12 round fight.. I asked around quite a bit before the fight started, about why they weren't fighting for Nate Campbell's NABF title, which he won from Alicea in a spectacular third round knockout. Really, a fight like this should have been for the title, and the only explanation I seemed to get was that Casamayor wasn't particularly interested in getting down to 130 lbs. to fight for the title. Certainly he couldn't use the excuse that HBO didn't have room for a twelve round fight, because this fight replaced Vassily Jirov vs James Toney which was scheduled for twelve rounds... so, certainly he couldn't use that as an excuse for fighting ten rounds. Surely it wasn't a matter of paying the sanction fees, the sanction fee couldn't have been that much for the NABF title.

I think the extra two rounds would have helped Campbell, as Casamayor's eye was closing. So, if you can't see the punches, it's not easy to fight, and certainly in rounds 11 and 12 he wouldn't have seen those punches coming. I think that Campbell would have had a good chance to score a knockout had the fight gone twelve rounds.

BRC: What do you see in Joel Casamayor's future?

LEDERMAN: Well, he is still a big name, without question. Has a great amateur record, he has a great pro record, so, unless the boxing politics hold him back, he certainly has a shot to move up to lightweight and get a huge pay day against Mayweather, Jr. If Floyd stays at 135 lbs., Casamayor may be one of the biggest names out there for him. I understand that Floyd is looking to fight a unification with Paul Spadafora but I just believe that Joel Casamayor is a better fighter than Paul Spadafora and he can give Floyd Mayweather, Jr. a much better fight.

As I understand it, though, there has been a lot of friction between Top Rank and Bob Arum and Casamayor. Casamayor left the Cuban team, went to Top Rank and then left Top Rank, you know... you can understand that there is probably still some friction there but even still, business is business, and Mayweather vs Casamayor, I think would be a huge fight, and I presume that's what they will be looking for.

BRC: What was your reaction to Forrest - Mayorga?

LEDERMAN: Well, you know, I like the referee and all, he is my friend, but this was a huge fight. My initial thought was that when Denkin stopped it, I thought that Shane Mosley got hurt in the first Vernon Forrest fight much worst and it was very, very early in the round. If you remember correctly, Steve Smoger let it go and Mosley grabbed, held on, and survived round two of the fight where he got knocked down twice.

In this case, I certainly would have let Vernon Forrest go another knockdown. I mean, I just believe that the guy is a world champion and he probably would have known enough to hold on, or somehow or another get out of the way, he wouldn't have got knocked out... I don't know, I was a little... I don't know, I was among the crowd who felt the fight was stopped a little too quickly. I would have let it go without question; it was just too big a fight, and Vernon was up on his feet too quick and I just wouldn't have stopped it at that point.

BRC: Were you impressed by Mayorga at all?

LEDERMAN: Well, yeah! How could you not be impressed by Mayorga? First of all, here is a guy that as I understand it, has been knocked out three times in his career, three losses, and he took shots from Vernon Forrest in the first round that probably would have knocked out anybody and he didn't even flinch. He takes a tremendous punch and another thing is, that he is a tremendous puncher. When he landed that right hand on the temple, I mean, I never thought he could knock out Vernon Forrest and he did. He found a way to do it; he got inside the jab, he landed that right hand and that's all you gotta do. Of course, I don't think he is making himself to be a great role model with all the cigarettes... (we are both laughing)... but even so, he is a funny guy, he really is and I think he has really developed, he has come on like gang busters. A rematch would certainly be interesting if that's the avenue he pursues, but if not, I'm sure he will get an interesting fight with the winner of Corey Spinks and Michele Piccirillo of Italy who has the IBF belt.

BRC: One last question, Harold, if I may... What is your take on the advice Ronnie Shields gave Vernon Forrest after the first round, when he advised Forrest to dig to Mayorga's body and establish his respect with Mayorga?

LEDERMAN: Well, Ronnie has taken a lot of criticism because of the fact that Forrest came in to mix it up and got knocked out. In round one he was landing some ferocious shots and then it appeared as though if he wasn't going to stand outside and box, move inside and get this guy out, he had a very good chance to do it because, you know, he was landing well until he got dropped late in the first round. He has a tremendous uppercut for a big, tall guy. I guess they never really figured that Mayorga was such a big puncher; they never figured that Vernon would get hurt so badly. So, Ronnie told him go in and get this guy out of there, bang to the body, make it an interesting fight... because you know, Vernon Forrest is the kind of guy who's always been accused of being dull. He stands outside and jabs, keeps winning, but doesn't make much of an attempt to mix it up, a lot like Lennox Lewis does very often, Lewis has been accused of the same thing. They say he stands outside and jab, and he's be very reluctant to mix it up like in the Holyfield fights, so, I guess Ronnie felt that Vernon could really make an impression by scoring a sensational knockout. I guess that's why they used the strategy that they did, it sort of backfired on him when he got hit on the temple, because that's a bad place to get hit. He lost his equilibrium, went down and when he got up, he was a little bit shaken, and the referee stopped the fight. So, you know, sometimes, the best laid plans of mice and men go awry.

BRC: Harold, it has been a pleasure to have this Q and A with you. Once again, I want to apologize on behalf of Nate Campbell for having omitted your name in the transcription of Nate's statement to me, I hope that you have forgiven me... And in closing, I have to tell you that never before have I seen and heard the HBO team be so much on the same page, it was quite a night for all involved.

Thank you!

P.S. Ricardo "El Matador" Mayorga's victory gives Don King promotional rights to three of the four major belts in the division. Mayorga has the WBA and WBC belt, while Michele Piccirillo of Italy has the IBF belt, which he defends against King fighter Corey Spinks, the number one contender from St Louis. The WBO belt belongs to the best fighter nobody has ever seen, Antonio Margarito of Mexico, who defends it on HBO February 8th against former champion Andrew "Six Heads" Lewis of Guyana. What was that I said earlier about vision and wisdom? Yeah, exactly...